tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22498220.post8836571000421585600..comments2021-05-28T04:54:45.702+02:00Comments on Martinned: Zwarte Pietmartinnedhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15282998467090268537noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22498220.post-29508862730687289692013-10-23T19:27:37.795+02:002013-10-23T19:27:37.795+02:00No obvious racist past??? Are you kidding? Take a ...No obvious racist past??? Are you kidding? Take a look at photos of slaves and their children from the 18th and 19th century. Can you not see that Zwarte piets are the slaves and Sinterklaas is their master? To me it is blatantly obvious.<br />Gr<br />MikeAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16306587760101584627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22498220.post-79902457693268109722013-10-23T19:22:13.065+02:002013-10-23T19:22:13.065+02:00Hi Martinned. It is not nonsensical. It is fact. T...Hi Martinned. It is not nonsensical. It is fact. The entire scenario of the white master dressed in regal clothing surrounded by his silly looking black slaves is about as clear a depiction of slavery as you can get in an annual tradition. the guy above gave unwittingly a perfect rejection of your very flawed reasoning by summing up how racist many Dutch people are. (And it is true... they don't realise it)<br /><br />Your easy dismissal of the impact zwarte piet and Sinterklaas (don't forget Sint who is the fulcrum of the whole thing) have on people, not only black, speed that you actually haven't really thought about this subject at all.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16306587760101584627noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22498220.post-66828242070309089612012-12-06T13:14:42.359+01:002012-12-06T13:14:42.359+01:00It might be a professional deformation, but I don&...It might be a professional deformation, but I don't know how to morally evaluate people, actions or institutions other than at the level of an individual. What does it mean to juxtapose "looking at a single person" with "how society looks at it"? <br /><br />(Even apart from the fact that there is no doubt in Dutch society that there is no racist implication in the Zwarte Piet tradition.)<br /><br />I've allowed the exception of a situation where the racist implications of an action should be apparent to everyone but aren't. But this is necessarily only the case for a few people, who are ignorant of what everyone else knows, and who are therefore morally culpable for their ignorance. But this will only be the case in rare circumstances, and I see no reason to apply that approach here, given that Zwarte Piet has no obviously racist past or present.martinnedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15282998467090268537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22498220.post-69979715724629166902012-12-06T08:57:05.967+01:002012-12-06T08:57:05.967+01:00You are confusing the actions of a person with cul...You are confusing the actions of a person with cultural beliefs of a group of people. When looking at a single person, you can indeed distinguish intent from effect. The issue of racism of Zwarte Pieten is about how society looks at it as a group, not about whether an individual intends to be racist by either being or supporting a Zwarte Piet.<br />In history, their are many examples of racism which were not with intend, but racism nonetheless. For example the Blackface theater phenomenon in the USA which was part of the racist policy of not allowing black people to be actors. But I can imagine the individual actors or spectators of a Blackface theater were not all racist: they could just have a jolly good time and claim they have nothing against black people. You can even say that some would be ignorant of the fact that Blackface theater is racist. Which counters your point that it is not batshit insane to be racist without knowing it. Ignorance is no excuse for doing stupid things.<br />Similarly, in history there have been other societal beliefs and practices that are now considered wrong: such as sexism, animal cruelty, child abuse. As society progressed, values changed and beliefs there were considered harmless are now seen as wrong. Jokes about women are still being made, but everyone is aware of the fact that those jokes and wrong and sexist (and fun). But wrong nonetheless.<br />With society becoming more globally connected, I expect the Zwarte Pieten tradition to change in the same way. And we better do it pro-actively as a country, than being shamed by others.Jaspernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22498220.post-80560708313472410852012-12-05T15:17:54.835+01:002012-12-05T15:17:54.835+01:00Whether "we" are "white" has n...Whether "we" are "white" has nothing to do with anything. The Sinterklaas holiday, with all its associated traditions, belongs to the entire Dutch people (and Belgians, and in different forms to other nations as well). Let's please keep it that way. Making distinctions based on race is unhelpful and nonsensical.martinnedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15282998467090268537noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22498220.post-47201831761758094842012-12-05T03:57:18.463+01:002012-12-05T03:57:18.463+01:00Great analysis. We white Dutch should stick up for...Great analysis. We white Dutch should stick up for our own traditions! People that are offended by white Dutch people dressing up as a black slave need to take their head out of their ass!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com